каркнул ворон никогда
Mar. 13th, 2011 03:18 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
avvaНосовые французские гласные (видео, англ.)
Я никогда, никогда, никогда не научусь это правильно произносить.
Слышали бы вы, как я сейчас изгалялся, повторяя за этим видео в микрофон. А потом прослушал себя. Какое-то отвратительное фрическое гнусавое мычание. Похоже на правильное произношение, примерно как гитара на фрикадельку.
А кроме того, есть еще: Trois voyelles arrondies: /ø/, /œ/ et /ə/ (фр.).
/Безнадежно мотает головой. Машет рукой. Медленно уходит со сцены, издавая странные гнусавые звуки, перемежаемые горьким смехом./
Я никогда, никогда, никогда не научусь это правильно произносить.
Слышали бы вы, как я сейчас изгалялся, повторяя за этим видео в микрофон. А потом прослушал себя. Какое-то отвратительное фрическое гнусавое мычание. Похоже на правильное произношение, примерно как гитара на фрикадельку.
А кроме того, есть еще: Trois voyelles arrondies: /ø/, /œ/ et /ə/ (фр.).
/Безнадежно мотает головой. Машет рукой. Медленно уходит со сцены, издавая странные гнусавые звуки, перемежаемые горьким смехом./
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no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 02:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 02:23 pm (UTC)а если кто думает, что я выдумал эти фамилии, то есть пруфлинки, именно с этими именами
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 02:36 pm (UTC)Утешением может также служить ужасающий французский акцент в английском, о чем они сами знают, веселятся и не больно комплексуют. При мне как-то коллега жаловалась, что ее группа в конференциях норовит переключиться на французский, там большинство французов. "Ну да, - подхватил француз, стоявший рядом, - а когда мы говорим по-английски, то акцент такой, что все равно уже, на каком мы там говорим..."
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 02:45 pm (UTC)хотя я имел в виду обобщенных французов :)
примерно как древние славяне поначалу называли "немцами" всех не-славян
а древние римляне всех не-римлян и не-греков звали "барбары"
оттого что "те" чавой-то там лопочуть бар-бар-бар либо ням-ням-ням, не разбери поймешь
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 02:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 03:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 05:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 04:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 05:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 03:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 03:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 03:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 04:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-17 05:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-17 06:10 pm (UTC)А вот русские глухие согласные - штука неимоверно привязчивая.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-17 06:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 04:52 pm (UTC)- - -
А arrondies они вовсе потому что губы округлены (не совсем так, как в русском у, но и не растянуты, как во французском же y), и уж в них-то ничего страшного нет.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 06:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 07:06 pm (UTC)помню, когда сама только начинала учить его, очень мучилась с "e" – хотя, казалось бы, что может быть проще. приходилось по сто раз перед сном повторять слова типа professeur, а потом всё наладилось.
bon courage вам в изучении это прекрасного языка :)
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 07:22 pm (UTC)есть ли французская "диаспора" в ЖЖ? )))
кто-нибудь знает, пишет ли кто-нибудь на хорошем французском тут?
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 07:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 09:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 10:55 pm (UTC)А эти ужасные гласные (как и почти всё остальное) - проще учить в детстве.
no subject
Date: 2011-03-13 10:59 pm (UTC)French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-14 03:44 am (UTC)One unknown secret of "easy" French pronunciation is to understand how the tongue works in reciprocally opposite fashions in English and French.
English: tongue is like a tablespoon in the basket of the lower jaw but makes its references to the entire circuit of the upper teeth. Thus outside edges curl up to touch upper teeth and center of tongue lower, concave, and doing no work, and the English jaw does not like to be open very wide because the tongue will lose contact with the upper teeth reference if the jaw is opened too widely.
French: Tip the spoon upside down. Reference outside edges of the tongue to the lower teeth so that the jaw opening controls the space between top of tongue and upper palate. Keep the upper surface of the tongue convex with the front tip basically glued to the inside edge of the lower front teeth. Learn to use the convex surface of the tongue against the roof of the mouth and develop the muscles to feel and press against the upper palate.
Just this change will modify and correct the sounds of French consonants.
What was said on the videos about the velar curtain and uvula is correct for nasals because the flow of air must split and go out through both nose and mouth. What was said about the basic vowels which get nasalized is not correct for the way the French works. 'a' nasalized is based on "a", o nasalized is based on the sound spelled as "au", and "in" or "ain" is based on the
'e accent grave'. "un" is nasalized based on the vowel "oe".
The key expression is "un bon vin blanc" pronounced as a flow with only initial consonants and only the nasalized flow at the end of each syllable.
I hope this helps. HMM
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-15 02:55 pm (UTC)You say it is based on 'è' and that is strange.
Somehow I perceive it as a kind of nasal 'a' instead of nasal 'è'
That is to say, I feel the real base is not 'è' but a different vowel, so open it is closer to 'a'. I feel the sound as similar to nasal æ
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-21 03:38 am (UTC)As to the sound of the "è", in French, you have three vowels which are made with the top surface of the tongue flattened across from side to side with the distinction controlled by the opening of the jaw, since the sides of the tongue are referenced to the inside of the lower teeth.
The "flat tongue" sounds are "a", "è", and "é" with the jaw opening calibrated by the thickness of your fingers. Place the tip of your index finger between upper and lower front teeth - that gives you the opening for "a". For "è", place the tip of your little finger in the same spot. The opening should be about half of that for index finger. For the "é", the space should be about half of that for the "è" but with the corners of the lips pulled as far back as possible. French makes the "a nasal" with the "a" vowel, and the sound of vin and timbre with the "è"vowel. For the correct sound of that vowel, try the French words
é lè ve or fai ble.
What I am trying to explain is how the French actually produce their sound rather than how you adapt an English tongue to make sounds somewhat like those of French. If you can adapt your tongue to the French system, the French sounds will come out correctly and naturally. Another thing you have to master is breathing. English is a language of stops. French is a language of air flow so that syllables always end with a vowel flow.
If you are further interested in this, I would be willing to go into more detail.
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2011-04-02 06:56 am (UTC)Of course, now I see my mistake in thinking the French have æ... Still, I have an "A" impression when I hear "vin" and I suspect that the base for this sound is broader than pure è. Could this be the case?
So, basically this is the question - is the nasal in "vin" somewhat broader than usual non-nasal è?
I understand there's little hope somebody will see this comment so late after the original answer... Anatoly, if you read this, could you please notify him (or her)? Thank you.
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-15 07:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-14 01:34 pm (UTC)French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-21 04:23 am (UTC)If you curl the top length of the tongue from tip to back to form a round passage big enough to shape around your middle finger, remembering to keep the sides referenced to the lower jaw, you get the tube tongue shape and this gives the sound "o" as in the word
"fo lle". Closing the tube to the half position, you get the sound "au" and closing it further, you get the sound "ou". Example: beau coup. Don't forget the the lips have to continue the same shapes and hold the centers of your lips back against the front teeth.
For the series "oe", "eu" and "u", you have to control both the lip shape by pulling the corners of the lip-shape together so that they are just in front of the eye teeth. For the top of the tongue, you have to narrow the passage from front to back in the same way, i.e. by narrowing the width of the internal tube from front to back. If you can correctly pronounce the French words "tu", "fut", "su", then you already have the tube shape. Examples: "un oeuf" but "des oeufs" for "oe" and "eu".
If your word "ogublyonnosti" means "having to do with the lips", then the secret there is that the French always hold the centers of the lips, both upper and lower, back against the front teeth and they vary the width openings of the corners.
As to Parisian speech, all languages get sloppy when they are spoken rapidly and in familiar situations, but for the correct sounds, listen to singers who are trying to make their sounds both clear and understood.
I would recommend listening to Edith Piaf singing "Milord" and to her pronunciations of the vowels.
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-21 03:50 pm (UTC)Спасибо, конечно, за экскурс в функциональную анатомию органов речи, но я жаловался не на принципиальную невозможность уловить различия, а на то, что сложно с лёгкостью их улавливать в разговоре и самому на автомате выдавать правильные нюансы.
То есть я знаю стандартные оппозиции (brin-brun, deux-heure), но в другие такие пары надо внимательно вслушиваться.
Эдит Пиаф как раз неподходящий пример, потому что, во-первых, она выросла в иммигрантской семье в иммигрантском пригороде, во-вторых, это известный факт, что она пела со специфическим манерным акцентом, как и многие эстрадные певцы в то время (чего только раскатистое rrr стоит), то есть к распространённым акцентам её пение имеет слабое отношение.
Re: French pronunciation
Date: 2011-03-21 05:35 pm (UTC)In French, both the upper and lower lips are firmly supported by the front teeth so the the centers are thinned to almost a point on the upper and lower edges of the lips. The airflow can thus be restricted by the lips but only for the briefest possible period as the consonants m , p, and b are pronounced. You can practice this by trying to hold the tips of your lips so close together that the air hisses as it passes through.
Since you are probably coming from basic Russian use of the lips, think about how they work. The Russian upper lip basically hangs relaxed in front of the upper teeth while the lower lip curls out like the English pattern and comes up so the the inside of the lower lip touches the outside front of the upper lip for p, b, and m. You might practice on the "pr" of the word "prosmotr"which is at the bottom of the page as I type. Back to French, if you tense up both the upper and lower lips and hold them as described above for French, you will discover that your whole outlook on life changes. I don't know why this is true, but it is what I feel every time I consciously practice the French lip operation.
Next, going back to "roundedness", the French get their lip flexibility by using three positions for the corners of the mouth. The medial position has the corners just back of the eyeteeth (i.e. the canine teeth. Then the back position has them in front of the next teeth back from the eyeteeth. This is the position for pronouncing "é". The narrow position has the corners pulled inside the position of the eyeteeth. This is the position for "u". The facial muscles need to be practiced to develop strength and ease for making these movements. You can do this by holding the centers of the lips firmly in position relative to the front teeth and then moving the corner inward and outward keeping in mind the three stop locations. The concept of "roundedness" tends to consider that there are only two stops instead of three. That's what you see in the "brin - brun" opposition. The "deux-heure" opposition uses the same corner postions and the variation there is between the half-open and full-open jaw positions.
You talk about ease of pronunciation and about correct nuances, but you are not going to get that until you develop muscular strength and feel for the relative French positions. It took me a year living in Paris and trying to figure out the mechanisms until I began to acquire ease. You may have a better ear than me for the nuances but they arrive out of beginning to master how the mechanism works. The "sloppiness" of easy pronunciation also arrives out of mastering the mechanism. I don't know whether you are familiar with the English variety of this, but the sentence "Did you eat yet?" slops into the pronunciation "Jeet yet?"
In French, "Je ne sais pas." slops into "Ché pa." Also in modern French, the opposition between "brin" and "brun" disappears to the point that they tend to be pronounced alike and the meaning is distinguished by context rather than sound.
As to Edith Piaf, I cited her because her pronunciation tends to follow the careful enunciation rather than the "easy sloppiness", largely because it is also easier to sing when governed by the length of the musical notes. Personally, I doubt that the fact of her "immigrant" background has any effect whatsoever on the accurateness of her pronunciation.
By the way, I realized afterwords that the gauge I gave you for the wide open jaw position should not be the thickness of the index finger, but rather that of the thumb which should be about twice as thick as the little finger. Sorry about that!
no subject
Date: 2011-03-14 02:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-03-16 08:28 pm (UTC)На мой взгляд подобные уроки настолько же полезны, как уроки по имитированию речи Милляра, или Горбачева или любого другого объекта пародий :)