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Улучил сегодня немного времени для библиотеки.

Полистал наконец (давно хотел) третье издания словаря Даля (посмертное, вышло в начале 20-го века). Собственно, четвёртое даже, но оно оказалось стереотипной копией третьего.

Дело тут в том, что в Советском Союзе переиздавалось всегда только второе издание словаря Даля (1881) - тоже посмертное, но состоящее только из накопленных самим Далем изменений и замечаний. Между тем третье издание было по сравнению с ним сильно дополнено. Редактором его был знаменитый (заслуженно) лингвист Бодуэн де Куртене (это всё фамилия, доставшаяся от польских предков, а звали его Иван). Он, кстати, первым в мире определил и использовал понятие фонемы в лингвистике.

Почему переиздавали второе издание, а не третье? Успенский в своей статье о русском мате утверждает, что потому, что в третье издание внесли матерные слова. Так как все советские переиздания были стереотипными, а такое издать не могли, то выбрали второе.

Так вот, матерные слова там, действительно, как оказалось, есть. Немного о них напишу в следующей записи в одной из следующих записей. Но и кроме них огромное количество дополнений и уточнений. Самое приятное, что Бодуэн де Куртене ввёл особую систему чёрточек и шрифтов, к-я позволяет точно идентифицировать все добавления и изменения и отличить их от оригинального текста Даля (который сохранён полностью). Ещё приятно, что во многих случаях (увы, не всегда) большие "гнёзда" Даля разбиты на отдельные статьи по словам.

Полистав это издание, я склонен считать теперь, что массовое переиздание второго, а не третьего, издания в советские времена попросту позором, непростительным и позорным ханжеством советской науки. С другой стороны, сам факт выхода в свет такого словаря в начале 20-го века показывает, что не-ханжеское научное отношение к языку в русской культуре вполне возможно, вопреки мнению многих (того же Успенского, кстати), и что нормальное изучение русского языка (и составление нормальных словарей) было невозможно в первую очередь из-за советского, совкового ханжества.

Я лишь отчасти ёрничаю, когда говорю, что одна из главных задач русской лингвистики, одна из главных проблем, стоящих перед ней - выпуск большого толкового словаря русского языка, включающего определение слова "хуй".


Да, и ещё заказал и полистал немного сборник статей Белого - знаменитый "Символизм" 1910-го года. Увы, на дом его не выдают. В свободное время хотелось бы отксерить и перечитать статьи о метре и ритме (готов поклясться, что они у меня где-то лежали дома отксеренные, но не могу найти; не могу даже вспомнить, откуда их ксерил - точно не из этого, оригинального издания; а где они переиздавались? не помню). Кстати, одну из них я таки не читал - ту самую, о которой с нежностью вспоминает Набоков, с "ромбами" и "трапециями" метрических фигур. Я читал только самую важную, о четырёхстопном ямбе Пушкина.

Date: 2001-10-11 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bbb.livejournal.com
À ÷òî âû äóìàåòå ïî ïîâîäó http://nlo.magazine.ru/artist/dudec/main10.html ? Ýòà ñòàòüÿ ïî÷åìó-òî íå ïîïàëà â ïîäáîðêó àâòîðà ïî àäðåñó http://www.ruthenia.ru/logos/personalia/plutser-sarno/home.htm

Òàì î Äàëåâñêîì ïðåäïðèÿòèè âåñüìà íåëèöåïðèÿòíî îòîçâàíî (îòçîâàíî?). Ñóäèòü íå ìîãó, èáî òåìåí.

Äèêî èçâèíÿþñü, åñëè ñ íåìûòûì ðûëîì ëîìëþñü â îòêðûòûå äâåðè.

Date: 2001-10-11 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dll.livejournal.com
>çíàìåíèòûé (çàñëóæåííî) ëèíãâèñò Áîäóýí äå Êóðòåíå

Ýòî òîëüêî ó íàñ îí çíàìåíèòûé. À èç çàïàäíûõ ëèíãâèñòîâ åãî çíàþò 10 ÷åëîâåê.

Çàñëóãè, êñòàòè, ó íåãî áîëåå çíà÷èòåëüíûå, ÷åì ïðîñòî âûäåëåíèå ôîíåìû êàê, òàê ñêàçàòü, ôèãóðû â ïðîòèâîïîñòàâëåíèè åå çíàêó. Ó íåãî, ñêàæåì, åñòü ÷åòêîå ïðîòèâîïîñòàâëåíèå ñèíõðîííîãî è äèàõðîíè÷åñêîãî ïîäõîäà ê ÿçûêó, ïàðàäèãìàòèêè è ñèíòàãìàòèêè è ïð.

 ïðèíöèïå, åñòü äàæå ìíåíèå (ëèíãâèñòè÷åñêàÿ áàéêà?), ÷òî äå Ñîññþð ïðîøòóäèðîâàë Áîäóýíà è òèõîíå÷êî ó íåãî âñå óïåð. Ïîòîì Ñîññþð ïðî÷èòàë ñâîè çíàìåíèòûå ëåêöèè, íà Áîäóýíà íå ññûëàÿñü, à Ñýøå è ïðî÷èå èçäàëè èõ.

Òàê Ñîññþð ñòàë çíàìåíèòûì.

Date: 2001-10-11 08:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
Òèïè÷íûé àêàäåìè÷åñêèé ñíîáèçì. Çàìå÷àíèÿ Ïëóöåðà-Ñàðíî î âñÿ÷åñêèõ ñëîâàðÿõ ìàòà âåðíû, íî íèêàê íå ñâÿçàíû ñ ìíåíèåì î ñëîâàðå Äàëÿ, çà êîòîðûì íè÷åãî ñóùåñòâåííîãî íå ñòîèò. Íàçûâàÿ ñëîâàðü Äàëÿ áåñïîëåçíûì, Ï-Ñ. âûêàçûâàåò òîëüêî ñâîþ îãðàíè÷åííîñòü. Ïåðåõîäÿ çàòåì ê õàðàêòåðèçàöèè òðåòüåãî èçäàíèÿ, îí îò îãðàíè÷åííîñòè äîõîäèò äî ãëóïîñòè, ò.ê. îòêàçûâàåò â ïîëåçíîñòè ñëîâàðþ íà îñíîâàíèè îäíîãî òîëüêî íåäîñòàòî÷íî ïîëíîãî ðàññìîòðåíèÿ â í¸ì îáñöåííûõ ñëîâ (â òî âðåìÿ êàê îáùåå êîë-âî äîáàâëåíèé â òðåòüåì èçäàíèè îêîëî 20% îò ìàññû ñëîâàðÿ).

Äëÿ Ï.-Ñ. ñëîâàðü íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ ñëîâàð¸ì, åñëè íå îòâå÷àåò âñåì ïðàâèëàì ëåêñèêîãðàôèè, íå ñëåäóåò ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî òî÷íûì ïðàâèëàì îòáîðà ìàòåðèàëà, è ò.ï. Ýòî, ïðàâî æå, ïðîáëåìû Ï.-Ñ., à íå íîñèòåëåé ðóññêîãî ÿçûêà, êîòîðûì òàêèå ñëîâàðè ìîãóò îêàçàòüñÿ ïîëåçíû.

Date: 2001-10-11 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bbb.livejournal.com
Ñïàñèáî! Äåéñòâèòåëüíî, äóøîê ñíîáèçìà (ïî ñóòè - ïðèçíàê ñëàáîñòè) ñèëåí.

Date: 2001-10-11 11:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
Íó ýòî âñ¸-òàêè íåñïðàâåäëèâî íåìíîãî. Ôàêò, ÷òî áîëüøàÿ ÷àñòü ñîâðåìåííîé çàïàäíîé ëèíãâèñòèêè âûðîñëà èç Ñîññþðà, à ïðî Áîäóýíà îíè óçíàëè îòíîñèòåëüíî íåäàâíî. Íî ñ òåõ ïîð, êàê óçíàëè, óâàæàþò, ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå â èñòî÷íèêàõ ïî ôîíîëîãèè îí îáû÷íî óïîìèíàåòñÿ.  èñòîðèè ïîíÿòèÿ ôîíåìû çà ïîñëåäíèå 100 ëåò, ê-þ ÿ íåäàâíî ïðî÷èòàë, åìó âîîáùå áîëüøàÿ îòäåëüíàÿ ãëàâà ïîñâÿùàåòñÿ, è àâòîð ïîäðîáíî ðàññêàçûâàåò î òîì, êàê îí âëèÿë íà çàïàäíóþ ëèíãâèñòèêó (åù¸ äî òîãî, êàê ïåðåâåëè åãî íà àíãëèéñêèé â 1972 - íàïðèìåð, òåì, ÷òî îí ó÷èë â Ïåòåðáóðãå áóäóùèõ ó÷èòåëåé ßêîáñîíà è Òðóáåöêîãî ;)).

 ïðèíöèïå, åñòü äàæå ìíåíèå (ëèíãâèñòè÷åñêàÿ áàéêà?), ÷òî äå Ñîññþð ïðîøòóäèðîâàë Áîäóýíà è òèõîíå÷êî ó íåãî âñå óïåð. Ïîòîì Ñîññþð ïðî÷èòàë ñâîè çíàìåíèòûå ëåêöèè, íà Áîäóýíà íå ññûëàÿñü, à Ñýøå è ïðî÷èå èçäàëè èõ.

Ôàêò, ìåæäó ïðî÷èì, ÷òî îíè âñòðå÷àëèñü (â 1881, åñëè íå îøèáàþñü) - èç ýòîé æå êíèãè ñâåäåíèÿ; è Á. îñòàâèë âî ôðàíöóçñêîì îáùåñòâå êîïèè íåêîòîðûõ ñâîèõ ñòàòåé, êîòîðûå Ñ. ïîòîì ÷èòàë. Íî "óï¸ð", êîíå÷íî, ïðåóâåëè÷åíèå ;)

Date: 2001-10-12 12:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dll.livejournal.com
 èñòîðèè ïîíÿòèÿ ôîíåìû çà ïîñëåäíèå 100 ëåò, ê-þ ÿ íåäàâíî ïðî÷èòàë

óïñ. à ÷òî ýòî çà êíèæêà? ñâåæåíüêàÿ?

Ôàêò, ìåæäó ïðî÷èì, ÷òî îíè âñòðå÷àëèñü (â 1881, åñëè íå îøèáàþñü)

Íå, íå ôàêò. ßêîáû êòî-òî äîêàçàë, ÷òî îíè ìîãëè âñòðåòèòüñÿ. Ïîìíþ, ãäå-òî ÷òî-òî ïðî ýòî ÷èòàë, íî âîò ãäå?.. Ýõ, ïàìÿòü äûðÿâàÿ...

Date: 2001-10-12 12:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
óïñ. à ÷òî ýòî çà êíèæêà? ñâåæåíüêàÿ?

Íå î÷åíü. Stephen B. Anderson, "Phonology in the Twentieth Century: Theories of Rules and Theories of Representations", 1985.

Öèòèðóþ îòòóäà: ...Saussure, who had met Baudoin in 1881 at a meeting of the Societe linguistique de Paris. Baudoin donated copies of some of his and Kruszewski's works to the Societe and Saussure read them with interest. In his own notes and manuscripts, Sausure refers on more than one occasion to Baudoin and Kruszewski as having been "close than anyone to a theoretical view of la langue, without departing from purely linguistic considerations".

Date: 2001-10-12 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nnikif.livejournal.com
Óñïåíñêèé â ñâîåé ñòàòüå î ðóññêîì ìàòå óòâåðæäàåò, ÷òî ïîòîìó, ÷òî â òðåòüå èçäàíèå âíåñëè ìàòåðíûå ñëîâà.
Ýòî ïîëó÷àåòñÿ, ÷òî ñàì Äàëü ìàòåðíûå ñëîâà èãíîðèðîâàë? Ìîæåò áûòü, ýòî ëåãåíäà, íî ÿ âñåãäà äóìàë, ÷òî â ñîâåòñêèõ èçäàíèÿõ ìàò èçûìàëè ñïåöèàëüíî, òî åñòü èì ïðèõîäèëîñü ïåðåíàáèðàòü êíèãó. À òðåòüå èçäàíèå îíî... íåàóòåíòè÷íîå ÷òî ëè. Íå ñàìîëè÷íîå.
ß ñàì êîãäà-òî êóïèë ñîâåòñêîå âòîðîå, î ÷åì æàëåë ìíîãîêðàòíî.

Date: 2001-10-12 03:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] some.livejournal.com
>âûïóñê áîëüøîãî òîëêîâîãî ñëîâàðÿ ðóññêîãî ÿçûêà, âêëþ÷àþùåãî îïðåäåëåíèå ñëîâà "õóé".

Àíàòîëèé, èìåííî Àëåêñ Ïëóöåð-Ñàðíî âûïóñòèë (êàæåòñÿ, óæå) ñëîâàðü, ïîñâÿùåííûé èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî ñëîâó «Õóé» (è âñåì åãî ïðîèçâîäíûì). Ó ìåíÿ ñëîâàðÿ ïîêà íåò, íî âåðþ, ÷òî îí âûøåë ëåòîì...

Date: 2001-10-12 06:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
Ôàêò, ó Äàëÿ íåò ìàòåðíûõ ñëîâ. Ýòî ïðàêòè÷åñêè åäèíñòâåííûé ïëàñò ÿçûêà, ê-é îí íå âêëþ÷èë â ñëîâàðü. Ó÷èòûâàÿ ñêîëüêî îí äà âí¸ñ, ÿ åìó ãîòîâ ýòî ïðîñòèòü.

Íàñ÷¸ò ïåðåíàáîðà Âû ïðàâû è ÿ íåò - ÿ ïðîâåðèë ñâî¸ ñîâåòñêîå èçäàíèå è òàì ñêàçàíî, ÷òî îíè ïåðåíàáèðàëè. Íå çíàþ, âûáðàñûâàëè ëè îíè ÷òî, íî ìàòåðíûõ ñëîâ òàì íå áûëî to begin with.

Date: 2001-10-12 06:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
ß çíàþ ;) íî âàæíåå èìåííî âêëþ÷åíèå ìàòåðíîé ëåêñèêè â îáùèé ñëîâàðü ðóññêîãî ÿçûêà.

Date: 2001-10-12 06:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] some.livejournal.com
Íó, ïî-ìîåìó, âàæíî íà÷àòü! Äàëüøå áóäåò ëåã÷å...
À åìó, êàê Âû ïîíèìàåòå, è çà ýòîò, îòäåëüíîñòîÿ÷èé, «Õóé» äîñòàëîñü. Îòëó÷èëè, âîèñòèíó, îò âñåõ ñâÿòûõ...
Ñêîðî åãî æå «Ïèçäà», êñòàòè, äîëæíà ÿâèòüñÿ â ñâåò. Îíà «ïîñèëüíåå» áðåííåðñêîãî âëàãàëèùà âûéäåò, äà... Âñåõ ãëóáîêî ïåðåïàõàåò. Òîãäà è âîéäóò îíè, äðóæíî ñëèâàÿñü, â ó÷åíûå äèñêóðñû...

Date: 2001-10-12 09:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dll.livejournal.com
äèêî èíòåðåñíî. íàäî áóäåò äîñòàòü. ÿ ñèâåíà àíäåðñîíà äî ýòîãî çíàë ñ åãî ìîðôîëîãè÷åñêîé ñòîðîíû. ó ìåíÿ äàæå ãäå-òî åñòü åãî êíèæêà ïðî a-morphous morphology.

Date: 2001-10-12 09:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
Õîðîøàÿ êíèãà (ïðî èñòîðèþ ôîíîëîãèè, ïðî ìîðôîëîãèþ íå ÷èòàë ;)) íî ñòðàäàåò ïî÷òè ïîëíûì îòñóòñòâèåì èíôîðìàöèè î ìîñêîâñêîé øêîëå (ëåíèíãðàäñêàÿ íàìíîãî ëó÷øå ïðåäñòàâëåíà èç-çà Òðóáåöêîãî etc.). Äëÿ Àíäåðñîíà ãëàâíûì ïðåäñòàâèòåëåì èäåè "ôîíåìà åñòü ôîðìàëüíîå ìíîæåñòâî àëëîôîíîâ" îñòà¸òñÿ Äæîíñ, íî ó íåãî ýòî âñ¸ ðàçâèòî, êîíå÷íî, êóäà õóæå, ÷åì ó ìîñêâè÷åé. Òî åñòü âîîáùå ïî÷òè íå ðàçâèòî.

Ñëèøêîì ìíîãî âíèìàíèÿ óäåëåíî Õîìñêîìó&Õàëëå, íî ýòî óæå ìî¸ ëè÷íîå ìíåíèå ;)

Date: 2001-10-22 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] agavr.livejournal.com
ýòî, âåðíî, âîâñå íå â òåìó, íî âîò - âäðóã âñïîìíèëîñü:

ôàêóëüòåòó ðóññêîãî ÿçûêà è ëèòåðàòóðû Ìîñêâîñêîãî Ãîñóäàðñòâåííîãî Ïåäàãîãè÷åñêîãî èì. Â.È. Óëüÿíîâà-Ëåíèíà äîñòàëàñü â íàñëåäñòâî âìåñòå ñî çäàíèåì è áèáëèîòåêà Âûñøèõ æåíñêèõ êóðñîâ. Ðàçóìååòñÿ, íà òàêîå êîëè÷åñòâî ñëóøàòåëüíèö, êàêîâî áûëî èõ ïðè ñîâåòñêîé âëàñòè, ÂÆÊ ðàññ÷èòàíû íå áûëè. Ïðèøëîñü çàêîëîòèòü ïàðàäíûé âõîä, îðãàíèçîâàòü ãàðäåðîáíûå â çàäíåé ÷àñòè çäàíèÿ, ïåðåíåñòè êíèæêè ïîãëóáæå - ïîòîìó ÷òî íàäîáíî áûëî ñíàáæàòü áóäóùåå ñîâåòñêîé øêîëû ïîëèòè÷åñêè ãðàìîòíûìè ó÷åáíèêàìè è ìåòîäè÷åñêèìè ïîñîáèÿìè.

íî - êàê íè ñòðàííî - èç êàòàëîãà èõ íå èçúÿëè. è "ñèìâîëèçì", è "ëóã çåëåíûé" áûëè â äîñòóïå. íå âîçíèêàëî ïðîáëåì ñ ïåðâûì ñîáðàíèåì ñî÷èíåíèé âëàäèìèðà ñåðãååâè÷à ñîëîâüåâà. ïàðà ìàðãèíàëüíûõ êíèæåê âàñèëèÿ ðîçàíîâà - ïðåäìåòà ìîèõ òîãäàøíèõ øòóäèé - áûëè âûäàíû ìíå áåç çàïèíêè. ïðàâäà, "îáîíÿòåëüíîãî è îñÿçàòåëüíîãî" óæå íå íàøëîñü - êòî-òî ïîçàèìñòâîâàë áåçâîçâðàòíî (âîò òîëüêî íå íàäî ñ÷èòàòü ìåíÿ âðàãîì ðîäà ÷åëîâå÷åñêîãî. ìîæíî áûòü ýòíè÷åñêèì åâðååì è ñïîêîéíî - äàæå ñ ñèìïàòèåé - çàíèìàòüñÿ ðîçàíîâûì).

þíîøà ÿ áûë ñàìûé ÷òî íè íà ðîìàíòè÷åñêè íàñòðîåííûé. ïîòîìó, ïîðàáîòàâ ñ ýòèìè êíèæêàìè, ñäåëàâ âûïèñêè è ôðàãìåíòàðíûå êñåðîêîïèè, ÿ àêêóðàòíî ñäàâàë èç îáðàòíî.

à âîò ñ "ñèìâîëèçìîì" òàê íå ïîëó÷èëîñü. âî-ïåðâûõ, ÷åì äàëüøå, òåì òåñíåå ñïëåòàëèñü âñå ìîè ôèëîëîãè÷åñêèå èíòåðåñû âîêðóã Áåëîãî. âî-âòîðûõ, íà÷àâøè ñ âãëÿäûâàíèÿ â ïåðåäà÷ó óñòíîé ðå÷è íà ïèñüìå ("óåäèíåíîå", "îïàâøèå ëèñòüÿ"), ÿ âñå ýíåðãè÷íåå äâèãàëñÿ â ñòîðîíó èññëåäîâàíèÿ ðóññêîé òåêñòîâîé èíòîíàöèè - à òóò ñòèõîâåä÷åñêèå áðåäíè áîðèñà íèêîëàåâè÷à ïðÿì ëîæàòñÿ â ðóñëî. è ñ÷èòàëèñü òåêñòû çà òåêñòàìè, è ðèñîâàëèñü äèàãðàììû è êàðòèíêè...

è ñèìâîëèçì ëåæàë è ëåæàë äîìà. à ïÿòûé êóðñ è âûïóñê ïîäáèðàëèñü. è ïðèøëà ïîðà ïîëó÷àòü äèïëîì. à äëÿ òîãî - ïîäïèñûâàòü îáõîäíîé ëèñò. è â òîì ÷èñëå - â áèáëèîòåêå.

êàê ÿ ìó÷àëñÿ! ìåíÿ ïðîñòî êðóòèëî è ëîìàëî! çà âñå òå òðè ãîäà, ÷òî ÿ ðàáîòàë äîìà ñ êíèæêîé, íà íåå íå áûëî ïîäàíî íè îäíîãî òðåáîâàíèÿ - ÿ ñâåðÿëñÿ ó ìèëûõ áàðûøåíü-áèáëèîòåêàðø. è åùå ãîäû íèêòî íå ïîëåçåò çà íåþ â áèáëèîòåêó - à ÿ? ÿ-òî ïîëåçó! ÿ áû åå ÷èòàë, ÿ áû åå...

ðàññòàâàëñÿ, êàê ñ æåíùèíîé.

âîáùåì, ïîøåë è ñäàë.

äàæå íå íàïèëñÿ ñ ãîðÿ: íå óìåë òîãäà. è ïî ñèþ ïîðó ïðàêòè÷åñêè íå óìåþ.

ps: Èâàí Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷ Áîäóýíà äå Êóðòåíå áûë êðåùåí Èãíàòèåì Íåöèñëàâîì. Åãî ìàãèñòåðñêàÿ äèññåðòàöèÿ áûëà ïîñâÿùåíà "äðåâíåïîëüñêîìó ÿçûêó". Òîò åùå "Èâàí" áûë Èâàí Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷ :)

Date: 2001-10-22 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avva.livejournal.com
Î÷åíü õîðîøàÿ èñòîðèÿ, áîëüøîå ñïàñèáî!

âîò òîëüêî íå íàäî ñ÷èòàòü ìåíÿ âðàãîì ðîäà ÷åëîâå÷åñêîãî. ìîæíî áûòü ýòíè÷åñêèì åâðååì è ñïîêîéíî - äàæå ñ ñèìïàòèåé - çàíèìàòüñÿ ðîçàíîâûì

Íå, ýòî íå êî ìíå, ìíå è ñàìîìó Ðîçàíîâ î÷åíü èíòåðåñåí è âî ìíîãîì ñèìïàòè÷åí.

êàê ÿ ìó÷àëñÿ! ìåíÿ ïðîñòî êðóòèëî è ëîìàëî!

Àõ, êàê ìíå çíàêîìû ýòè ÷óâñòâà ;)

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