израильская политика

[avva]

Десятки муниципальных раввинов в Израиле подписались под религиозным постановлением, которое запрещает сдавать квартиры в аренду неевреям. (англ.)

Нет слов.

(... и ведь все эти мерзавцы, что интересно, все эти "муниципальные раввины" - государственные служащие. Все они живут на в том числе и мои налоги).

Понятно, что нормальной реакцией на это было бы немедленно уволить всех подписавших это письмо. Понятно, что в нашей стране, к моему сожалению и стыду, это не случится. Но какое-то локальное приближение к этому должно существовать. Как-то в этом направлении надо пытаться двигаться. Я не знаю в точности, как. Может, поощрять своими голосами те партии, которые обещают бороться с этой дрянью. "Шинуй" в свое время разбазарила свой политический капитал и почти ничего не сделала; возможно, пришло время для еще одной попытки, не знаю. Но что-то пытаться делать надо. Потому что если закрывать на все это глаза, то через какое-то время мы действительно будем жить в Иране, не преувеличивая.

P.S. Для не-израильтян, немного конктекста: речь идет о прокламации, которая с точки зрения закона никого не обязывает. Религиозные евреи, которые уважают подписавшихся под ней раввинов, могут считать ее для себя обязательной.

Comments

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

Why start there? Accuse of hate 99.9999% of landlords. They insist they have liberty to decide to whom lease their property without advertizing their motivations. The Jews (like everyone else) have no obligation to rent their houses to a person in the street. If you call exercise of liberty hate, you should not worry about moving the goal posts because you are not hitting the ball in the right direction. If someone asks whether you are willing to sell your own jacket for $10, and you say no, this is not called "hate". On the other hand, pointing fingers, faulting stangers, and accusing the others of preaching hate is... what's the word?

[kobak.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I was living in the German town Freiburg for several years. There are many students there, and few flats; the market is tough, flats are expensive and landlords tend to be picky. Obviously they prefer German speaking students, and an Asian guy who has just arrived to Freiburg and speaks awful English and no German at all can have severe problems with finding accommodation. I've heard about such people being refused from literally dozens of flats.

Now that's bad, but somehow understandable. But let's imagine a German authority (maybe a well known writer, or a respected politician) announcing publicly that he would recommend Germans not to lend any flats to Asians.

Wouldn't THAT be considered hatred, and rightly so?

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

Now replace Asians for smokers.

[kobak.livejournal.com]

I don't see a principle difference. Or what do you mean?

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

One's concern about the health of one's family is not hate and a world of caution against grave and real danger is not hate.

[leblon.livejournal.com]

Renting an apartment to a gentile (say, an atheist or a Christian) is a grave and real danger? For whom? This is just a feeble attempt to rationalize bigotry.

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

To a Jew, of course. Think of the whole picture. The worst that could happen to an idolater who is refused a lease by a Jew is renting it elsewhere. Guess what is going to happen to the Jew who housed an idolater and became involved in the idolatrous worship. Look it up in the Talmud, I provided the link. The whole tractate is about idolatry.

Idolatry is considered in the same light as murder. I mean this literally. Think about a law advising against renting one's house to a convicted serial killer. If you do not consider this dangerous, good for you. But to a Jew it is; it is playing with mortal danger. Or just think about renting your apartment to a Satanic cultist cheerfully informing you that it is the right size for his blood sacrifices. In short, I suggest you to think of something you consider heinous and dangerous to you and your family and ask whether you would like to rent part of your house to a person embodying everything you fear most. If you will, then you can accuse the others for bigotry. If there is a line that you draw somewhere, then consider the possibility that other people draw it elsewhere. Empathy goes both ways, does not it?

[leblon.livejournal.com]

I am afraid I cannot put myself into the shoes of someone who, from my viewpoint, has views bordering on lunacy. Luckily, this is not necessary, since it is quite transparent that the fear of idolaters is just an excuse. Nonreligious Jews behave in every way like nonreligious gentiles, and nevertheless it is renting to non-Jews that is proscribed.

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

This Talmudic law is against the idolaters of any extraction.

I asked you to imagine your worst fear being in the next room, day after day. I did not ask you to imagine that this fear is rational. I am seeing the replay of this situation very often on the telly, when a convicted pedophile is released from the prison and his true identity becomes known in the neighborhood he is embedded. Go and tell parents that this pedophile is not dangerous, that he has civil rights, that they are all fearful cretins and bigots, and the rest of it. If you live with your children in the same street, fearing the same fears as these other parents, then you can tell them anything you darn want. If you do not, praise the Lord you are not in their shoes and keep mum. To call someone a bigot you MUST put yourself into this person's shoes. If you can't or won't -- and still keep on calling, you become a bigot in your own shoes. As I say, it cuts both ways.

[leblon.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do find ridiculous comparisons between pedophiles and murderers on one hand and people with views on religion which disagree with yours. If you call this bigotry - well, you just redefined the word.

I do not believe for a second that it is fear of contact with "idolaters" that caused the proclamation in question. I understand that your sympathies cause you interpret it in the most favorable way possible. But this interpretation is not convincing. The call was to refrain from renting to non-Jews, not "idolaters". These two sets of people are obviously not the same. (In fact, the people affected will most likely be Muslim Arabs, who are not considered "idolaters" by religious Jews).

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

I understand that. Precisely for that reason you disqualify yourself from such judgments. I can claim that I find it's ridiculous to fear pedophiles. It is irrational because, say, statistically, a pedophile would know better than molest a child right where he lives. We would not get far by ridiculing palpable concerns of other people. Show me the country in which folk are obligated to rent their own houses to the first man in the street knocking on the door justifying that by saying that their fears are ridiculous. A bigot is defined as "a person obsitnately devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." I am sorry, but you have demonstrated precisely such obstinate devotion to your own opinion and prejudice. I am not suggesting that you are a bigot; I am saying that bigotry is a big word that cuts both ways. I am not redefining anything here.

Have you read the proclamation? Have you read the justification for this proclamation? I did not and I said so. All that I observed is that the Talmudic law does prohibit renting property to idolaters under certain conditions. No more and no less.

Let me add something you may not know, togive you some perspective. I was told that the rabbis should abstain from quoting 'Avodah Zarah in the interest of Israeli public and fired rom their posts if they do. In the Middle Ages, the Gemara part of this tractate was the most censored part of the whole Talmud. Possession of this tractate was a capital crime in several Catholic countries. So it looks awfully familiar. The champions of tolerance are suggesting to emulate the Spanish Inquisition. Literally.

[leblon.livejournal.com]

You are changing the goalposts. Nobody suggests that one is obligated to offer a room for rent to any random person from the street who applies. Rather, the question is how to regard someone who is willing to rent only to member of his own religious or ethnic group. I think this is intolerance pure and simple.

I have not read the proclamation either, but several people in comments above did, and nobody mentioned "idolaters". So I do not see how your reference to Talmud is helpful.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition (c)! Especially nobody expects it to fire people from jobs, they used the other kind of "fire" to deal with the individuals they did not like. In a free country one has the right to preach bigotry, of course, but one does not have the right to be paid for it by the state. In any case, I have nothing to say about this aspect of the matter, this is up to Israeli citizens to decide.

[shkrobius.livejournal.com]

But the Tamud does not restrict renting to only Jews. Who is moving the goal posts here? It even allows renting to an idolater providing there is no worship and some other conditions. You really found a great example of intolerance.

I need to see the exact wording rather than the newspaper rendition in English. I also need to see the rabbinical verdict rather than the proclamation.

Firing bigots on state payroll is tricky business. Just think about our own politicians in the US. In the 50s and the 60s, the halls of power were chocked with ex-KKK congressmen open and uninhibited in their views. Why, the great late Sen. Robert Byrd, the Exalted Cyclops and Kleagle of KKK, the longest-serving senator in the US history, died just last June, mourned by all people of good will. This bigot has been paid by the state since 1953! Nobody "fired" this statesman, though he enjoyed many a pyre in his salad days. Also, "preaching bigotry" would be an apt job description for the successors of the Exalted Cyclops. They would not call it bigotry, of course, because it is the right kind of bigotry (e.g., prejudices = great visions, obstinacy = audacity of hope) but that is a matter of opinion. If you fire all bigots on the state payroll, no one will be left to guide this nation. You cannot mean it seriously.