израильская политика
Dec. 7th, 2010 07:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
avvaДесятки муниципальных раввинов в Израиле подписались под религиозным постановлением, которое запрещает сдавать квартиры в аренду неевреям. (англ.)
Нет слов.
(... и ведь все эти мерзавцы, что интересно, все эти "муниципальные раввины" - государственные служащие. Все они живут на в том числе и мои налоги).
Понятно, что нормальной реакцией на это было бы немедленно уволить всех подписавших это письмо. Понятно, что в нашей стране, к моему сожалению и стыду, это не случится. Но какое-то локальное приближение к этому должно существовать. Как-то в этом направлении надо пытаться двигаться. Я не знаю в точности, как. Может, поощрять своими голосами те партии, которые обещают бороться с этой дрянью. "Шинуй" в свое время разбазарила свой политический капитал и почти ничего не сделала; возможно, пришло время для еще одной попытки, не знаю. Но что-то пытаться делать надо. Потому что если закрывать на все это глаза, то через какое-то время мы действительно будем жить в Иране, не преувеличивая.
P.S. Для не-израильтян, немного конктекста: речь идет о прокламации, которая с точки зрения закона никого не обязывает. Религиозные евреи, которые уважают подписавшихся под ней раввинов, могут считать ее для себя обязательной.
Нет слов.
(... и ведь все эти мерзавцы, что интересно, все эти "муниципальные раввины" - государственные служащие. Все они живут на в том числе и мои налоги).
Понятно, что нормальной реакцией на это было бы немедленно уволить всех подписавших это письмо. Понятно, что в нашей стране, к моему сожалению и стыду, это не случится. Но какое-то локальное приближение к этому должно существовать. Как-то в этом направлении надо пытаться двигаться. Я не знаю в точности, как. Может, поощрять своими голосами те партии, которые обещают бороться с этой дрянью. "Шинуй" в свое время разбазарила свой политический капитал и почти ничего не сделала; возможно, пришло время для еще одной попытки, не знаю. Но что-то пытаться делать надо. Потому что если закрывать на все это глаза, то через какое-то время мы действительно будем жить в Иране, не преувеличивая.
P.S. Для не-израильтян, немного конктекста: речь идет о прокламации, которая с точки зрения закона никого не обязывает. Религиозные евреи, которые уважают подписавшихся под ней раввинов, могут считать ее для себя обязательной.
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no subject
Date: 2010-12-08 06:27 pm (UTC)It will achieve nothing. You can fire a million rabbis and still the idolaters will not be considered on equal footing with the Jews. Exemplary punishment does not work and it never worked. People politicize not only from top down, but also from bottom up, and their opinions do not require the royal seal. Worse, zero tolerance is immediately abused, because any view can be presented as discriminating against some group. This is a recipe for PC rather than any real change. I tell you why.
This US federal law I've mentioned was from 1968. The degree of segregation hardly changed in the passing forty years. My city is the same patchwork of ethnical enclaves it has always been. The only tangible achievement was mass exhodus of white folk to the burbs resulting in the decay of the inner city and misery of the very people it was supposed to benefit. There are integrated neighborhoods (I live in one of them, with 60% blacks). The degree of integration in my neighborhood would be exactly the same w/o this law (it was integrating long before 1968; actually,it slowed down since the early seventies when the hood became surrounded by all-black ghettos). I do not believe in PC and legislative approach to improvement of human nature, and I've heard enough sermons on racial harmony coming from all-white suburbs to become cynical about such preaching. The imagination is expended on inventing feel-good laws for other people to obey and spectacles of targeted fury rather than moving back and trying to live together. I am yet to meet a black person who would not see through it.
What works is different from what is being advertized as a solution. A photo of a little girl escorted to her school did more for changing the mood of this country than all of these laws put together, and a book about an old Negro living in a cabin ended centuries of slavery. It works when it is from the heart. There are problems that simply cannot be solved by firing municipal rabbis. That so many people believe otherwise is a far greater concern that the one discussed in the post.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-08 08:36 pm (UTC)Кроме того, ситуация у нас сильно отличается от ситуации с неграми в 60-е. Там, как мне кажется, было более ясное разделение на страдающую и причиняющую страдания стороны, так что можно было помочь действиями "от сердца". Здесь сердцА гораздо более ожесточены, слишком много крови, слишком много страстей, чтобы рассказ о хижине дяди Тома или фотография девочки могли сделать революцию; потому, например, вот эта отвратительная фотография произвела мало впечатления на израильтян. Увы.
Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-08 09:34 pm (UTC)There were previous complaints of this kind. I have seen this people, too, and Moses had a point.
So you think our American folk are a sentimental lot. Well, maybe they are... That's an interesting view, I have not thought about it this way. They certainly wept over the book, but when the discussion ended and all opinions were tallied, there were 700,000 bodies rotting in the ground. It could've been worse, but still. Dealing with stiffnecked people has its frustrating moments but, behold, everyone is alive and well. Not a small achievement, I think.
Re: Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-08 09:45 pm (UTC)Re: Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-08 10:16 pm (UTC)Re: Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-09 12:45 am (UTC)Xenophobia usually means the division into us and them. Sorry, but I've seen enough of it in the comments to this post to fuel a platoon of the most stiffnecked municipal rabbis. The overall impression is deep seated animosity and mutual mistrust, with the occasional Arab dragged into the conflict that has little to do with Arabs and will be as bitterly pursued (perhaps even more bitterly) had there were no Arabs around. I guess it is no better on the other side of the divide.
BTW, xenos has double meaning in Greek: a stranger and a friend bound by the ritual of xenia. I wonder what kind of xenophobia you really have in Israel.
Re: Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-09 01:17 am (UTC)Простите, но это чистейшая демагогия. Наверняка, не будь никакой войны и террора, остались бы ксенофобы и националисты с врождённой, глубинной и ничем не вызванной враждебностью, но их было бы на много порядков меньше. Утверждение, будто реалии не имеют к этой ненависти отношения, не очень честно и показывает не очень глубокое знание этих реалий.
(А здешние комменты, кстати, не показательны, потому что среди русскоязычных евреев категоричность, непримиримость и экстремизм гораздо больше, чем у евреев вообще.)
Насчет ксенофобии смешно, и у нас, конечно, встречается "связанность ритуалами дружбы" - желание оправдать еврея потому, что он свой-друг, а не потому, что он прав. Но всё-таки не у большинства; мы стараемся быть честными и непредвзятыми:)
Re: Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-09 01:32 am (UTC)Re: Oh, so true
Date: 2010-12-09 06:22 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2010-12-09 06:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 09:39 am (UTC)You say no one has the right words, the words coming from the heart, the words that make real difference, the words that change everything: the words for the stiffnecked people. I know where to find these words. These words have been copied generation after generation, and you can read these words. Centuries of toil were spent on making certain that the same thing would not happen again.
What I observe from my remote location is that it is happening again.
Whatching from a safe place far far away there is another pair of eyes. Knowing, knowing. Seeing, seeing. And the time is ticking, ticking.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 08:46 pm (UTC)There are different aspects to this story. The aspect of the long-term ethical discussions between Jewish theologists seems to me the less important one. I do not know about this, but since not all rabbis agree with this advice we condemn, perhaps mean racist bigotry is not such an essential a part of Judaism as you portray it.
But please try to register a different aspect. My wife and I live here in Haifa next to Arab neighbors. Some of them are wonderful people and most of them are just normal law-abiding ones. They are all different people - individuals, just like everybody else. It is wrong to see them just as "Arabs" and not as individuals. They are cruelly discriminated against on many levels here, even if they are equal by law. They find hatred, prejudice and lack of basic decent human sympathy everywhere and this is quite undeserved for most of them. True, only very rarely it results in deaths. But daily attacks on self-respect can be quite painful - I as a Jew am quite aware of that, perhaps you are too.
Some of them teach their children to try to ignore the insults, overcome difficulties and take the opportunities that are open for them in our vibrant society. And some others teach hatred. It is very important to me and to my children, that the first kind would remain the prevalent. This practical argument is in addition, of course, to the racist discrimination being morally wrong.
These government officials (that happen to be rabbis) abuse their position to add to the hatred. They do not want co-existence, they want war. They destroy my future. I do not care much about their reasons, although I strongly suspect they are purely political, not religious. But whatever the reasons, the result of their move is surely political. And it is wrong to present them as naive scholasts - they know their political power, they are fully responsible for what they do. They think they cannot be touched because they are protected by the corrupt "religious" political power. They should lose their jobs. To approach this modern political issue from the point of view based on a 2500-year-old religious analogy is just not helpful. Please understand - this is not the question of "improving human nature", as you have preached to my wife. It even has little to do with Judaism. It is a question of stopping some thugs.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 03:24 am (UTC)Let me answer you just on facts, leaving aside the preaching aspects.
> If the Arab is a Muslim, this Talmudic law against renting to the idolaters does not even apply to his family. How can it "racially discriminate" against your neighbors that are presumably Muslim? Nowhere does the Talmud teach that the Ismaelites should be insulted, harassed, or persecuted. Let's not make things up.
Do you believe for a minute their letter deals with Talmudic aspects, specifing that it concerns only "idolaters"? "Dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis have signed on to a new religious ruling that would forbid the rental of homes to gentiles in a move particularly aimed against Arabs. The rabbis' letter, which was first published months ago and reprinted in October, urges Jewish owners of apartments to reconsider renting their properties to Arabs since it would deflate the value of their homes as well as those in the neighborhood.
"Their way of life is different than that of Jews," the letter stated. "Among [the gentiles] are those who are bitter and hateful toward us and who meddle into our lives to the point where they are a danger."
You still don't see "how it can racially discriminate against our neighbors", whether they are Muslims, Christians or ateists? Don't you think that "deflating the values of our homes" has nothing to do with Talmud?
Now, the letter originates from Safed, "a city that has seen an increase in its Arab student population that is enrolled at the town's local college". So, it's not just aimed against Arabs, but mainly against that part of Arabic community which we would strongly prefer to prevail over those who teach their children hatred and misery. How is such incitement consistent with Torah?
Don't you see how it can evoke a bloodshed, at least in the long run?
> Then their inadequacy as rabbis is legitimate concern.
Oh yes it is. But do you still believe it's the only concern about them, considering that they occupy municipal posts?
They cause hatred not only against Arabs. Ostracizing one's neighbors and acquaintances (Jews) who sell or rent to an Arab, reporting them to the community, distancing themselves from them, refraining from doing business with them, denying them the right to read from the Torah etc. - how about that? Do they help our "people to come together and to forget all discords" as you'd like us to do?
>Jews are demonized for being Jews in Israel, this does not look good
Do you still think these rabbies are "demonized" and, if they are, they are demonized just for being Jews?
>...they explain Rabbinical law to their congregation (and this law can disagree with the popular mood - there was no age in history when some part of it did not)
Unfortunately, it - or whatever they pass off as the Rabbinical law - quite agrees with the popular mood. That's a problem.
…
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 04:12 am (UTC)In my view, yes, this is the only concern. If you want rabbis rubber-stamping popular opinions, do not have rabbis at all. You badly need just such rabbis. If you think that the prophets were popular, you are quite mistaken. Isaiah, for example, was sawn in half while alive. If the rabbis are demonized because they are rabbis teaching the sections of Gemara that are not to the liking of secular Jews, of course, this is demonization. Being a rabbi does not mean catering to liberal attitudes. If these rabbis are expected to change their verdicts because they are paid from municipal taxes, such rabbis are not needed to anyone. So it is only about one thing: are they correct from the stanpoint of Rabbinical law. If they are improvising on the fly, they are bad rabbis and should be let go.
We have a somewhat similar situation with some judges appointed for life. If they interpret law correctly nothing can be done about it, and they are paid from our taxes. Unlike rabbis they make decisions for everyone. Their opinions can be very unpopular and even unjust, but such is life. Some things cannot be helped.
I do not see how is their ruling "agrees" with the popular mood. You guys are crying bloody murder for the third day. I imagine what happens when there are disgreements!
As for the chosen method: ostrakism, I agree with you. This seems inappropriate and unwarranted. To tell you the truth I do not think these are very good rabbis. But that is not what irked me. Just looked how many people said that even if the ruling were specifically about idolters they would still hate the gut of these "haremongering" rabbis. So it is not the detail of the verdict (which is what I find important) it is the very fact that rabbis did not produced the expected opinions which is found heinous. There was I guy openly saying that he faults rabbis for not selectively reading the Mishnah. I.e., the rabbis were indeed faulted just for being rabbis. Maybe you don't do that. The others just did.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 07:39 am (UTC)>If you will be that, there will be no problem with the Arabs.
I am sorry, I do not get your meaning. What do you mean by "problem with the Arabs"? Our inability to provide full de-facto equality to Arab citizens? The terrorism problem? The wars with the totalitarian regimes around us? You see, there are some Arabs I have no problem with. And some others that I do. And still others that have a problem with me. These are all different people and different problems. I do not see how stamping out "differences among Jews" may help any of these problems. I rather see how it might do the opposite.
>The "thugs" you want to stop are your brothers on whose love your future is entirely dependent.
I disagree. Our jails contain murderers, rapists, ugly despicable people. Did you know, we have a proper mafia in Israel, with criminal dons, contract killings and passer-by casualties. Do I also depend on their love?
Please understand, I have nothing against Judaism and rabbis. This is not about rabbis or Talmud teachings. If you build your impressions about Israel from "talking to your Israeli friends" or perhaps from blogs such as avva's, then your view is not balanced. We have many Jews here that are willing to hear incitement about Arabs and act on it. In contrast to you, they do not care about the incitement being theologically correct. BTW, my Arab neighbors are mostly Christian, and this does not matter to me one bit. Unfortunately, this also does not matter to our thugs, despite the Talmudic teaching. Their hatred is purely xenophobe and nationalist, nothing religious about it, the religiosity here is just a pretense. These rabbis use it for their political power. It is not the question of them being theologically right or wrong. They are bad rabbis because they abuse their status for political gain.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 04:31 pm (UTC)There is no problem with the Assyrians. There is no problem with the Babylonians. There is no problem with the Greeks. There is no problem with the Romans. There will be no problem with the Arabs.
>>Do you depend on their love?
Like you do not know the answer. Like you do not know that you are not going to treat the Arabs better than you are treating each other.
I've been to Israel and I've seen what I've seen. I do not need any extra material than the last paragraph of your comment. If you guys will keep ascribing lowly motives to each other and accuse each other of xenophobia, hatred and what not, then the romantic nonsense will be done with. All of it, to the last stone.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-11 01:07 am (UTC)I am afraid, once again, your tendency to see people as good (in accordance w/ some deep, though, possibly, not fully known, notion of Good), seems to many a bit difficult to reconcile with the observed facts of individual behavior :))
no subject
Date: 2010-12-11 12:33 pm (UTC)For its recipients this is not a religious message, it is only dressed up as such. But somehow I must believe that for the rabbis it is a wholly religious conclusion, and these naive saints are unaware of the ugly consequences of their action. Sorry, I shall remain a cynic in this.
You know, in our prisons many secular Jewish criminals become observant Jews. This is viewed kindly by the prison service and has implications for the parole decisions. It is strange how often a cynical "religious dressing up" is not seen through by even very smart people.
I see, I must "love" even a murderous drug-dealer Jew more than even a loyal Israeli Ph.D. Arab. Well, I am an imperfect Jew, no doubt about that.
I hear often enough that "we must forget our differences". For some strange reason this message is always meant as a demand for people like me to accept the views of the "religious" far right, never the other way round. Since I see many "religious" people including rabbis that are not preaching hate, I conclude that this hate is not essential for a good Jew. This means that my being a Jew does not demand from me to accept hateful ideas. This also means that the rabbis that do preach hate, do it on their own inclination, they are not automata messengers of God's will.
It is appropriate that we have had this discussion during the cheerful Hanukkah holiday. These days we were celebrating how 2200 years ago Jews like these rabbis have murdered Jews like me. It was their best attempt at reaching that elusive "Jewish unity". The Temple was purified then. But somehow not much good resulted from it. And now we sing the beautiful Hanukkah songs to the tunes that have originated among the XV-century Germans. In the long run xenophobia has no future.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-11 01:37 pm (UTC)http://www.hakolhayehudi.co.il/?p=1346
I guess we should believe that his citations from the rabbis' letter are accurate. I shall try to translate. The letter says:
"We reply that it is forbidden by the Torah to sell a house or a field in Eretz-Israel to a non-Jew [nokhri]... Also evil upon evil a seller or a lender of an apartment to them in a region that Jews live in, causes a great damage to his neighbors, since their way of life is different from Jews, and between them are such that are enemies to us and interfere with us even up to danger to life..."
Also the letter says that selling an apartment to a non-Jew hurts the seller's neighbors economically.
The letter does not distinguish between "idolater" non-Jews and other non-Jews. It is understood by sympathizers to include Arabs of all faiths and also all foreign workers (most of which are Christian). The letter is signed by the chief rabbis of Ramat-ha-Sharon, Ashdod, Herzliya, Kfar-Sava, Yavneh etc.
This letter is in support of the view expressed by the chief rabbi of Zefat. The chief rabbi of Jerusalem Old City and Yaakov Yosef, the son of the famous former chief rabbi of Israel Ovadia Yosef, are also among the signatories. All these rabbis command a significant political support.
Some of the most important haredi rabbis have refused to sign the letter and have criticized its calls. Among them the rabbi Elyashiv, and the rabbi Steinman. They have reportedly (http://www.mako.co.il/news-israel/local/Article-c7100af9b6ccc21004.htm) called this letter an irresponsible nationalist provocation.
I am happy to agree with rav Elyashiv and rav Steinman.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-11 06:35 pm (UTC)Either these Rabbis are incorrect in their interpretation of the tractate (demonstratively so, because it contradictes Rambam's) or the translators/interpretors are wrong in rending this document. "Nokhri" is used in 'Avodah Zarah in reference to idolaters only. This term does have the broader meaning of non-Jew but only because in the olden times all non-Jews in Israel were idolaters. This is clumsily written letter because it leaves ambiguity on the most important poin for laity. The intention of the tractate and the Mishnah is unambigous. If these non-Jews do not worship idols, this law does not apply to them. The reasonable thing to do would not be cry to heaven but require these rabbis to disambuguate their ruling. The problem is not that it is "irresponsible nationalist provocation" but that, quite simply, it is either sloppily and ambigously written or incorrect. "Sympathizers" that you mention might be reading in this letter what is not there. As you mention there is an influx of foreign labor from Asia, I can imagine that some of these might be idolaters. Then the concern of these rabbis is entirely understandable. The "economical" part is a puzzler, I agree.
A lot of good can be done simply by having a discussion in good faith, where every side hears each other clearly.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-12 12:52 pm (UTC)The little I know about Judaism includes a dim understanding of the spiritual difference between the ways of Judah Maccabee and the ways of Yohanan ben Zakkai. Perhaps you are right - the old confrontations do come back sometimes and history does have something to teach us. Judah Maccabee has had his cruel "purifying" victory, but it was the gentle victory of Yohanan ben Zakkai that has prevailed. I hope this time we shall skip the "purifying" part.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-12 05:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 04:47 pm (UTC)There already are calls, just as I thought, for everybody to anonymously inform on Jews renting to Arabs. The names of the offenders will then be made public for all to condemn. It is "assimilation" they fear, not idolaters. Does this ring any bells for you, or do you still think that the rabbis did publish their letter in true faith?
Any such renter can surely expect ostracism and harassing. I hope at least that there will be no lynchings, in the manner of Palestinians.
I believe rabbis should be responsible for the consequences of their actions, just like everybody else. Yes, there are respected rabbis that has already correctly called this letter an "irresponsible nationalist provocation". Perhaps in the end their opinion will result in "rectification of errors", so Judaism will correct itself. But the political and criminal damage by then will already be done. This is why we are offended by the letter and demand the resignations. Nobody is blaming Judaism, we just blame the specific trouble-making politicians that have signed the letter.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-13 05:44 pm (UTC)I'll make my own prediction. These rabbis will either tell that it does not apply to the Arabs (de facto admitting that they failed to write a competent rabbinical verdict) or begin contort trying to explain why it applies to all Arabs (in my view, this is simply impossible as a blanket statement) never keeping their story straight even among themselves. In both cases they will discredit themselves - not in your eyes, but in the eyes of people listening to them. As I said, you only need to wait.
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